Thanks for the plug, Eric. Yeah, the title of the site has gotten me in trouble with a few people too, not to mention I couldn't even say the word "sucks" growing up.

The juxtaposition of the words church and marketing is definitely not a new subject. We are simply another conversation piece in the journey toward nudging churches into better communication. Thanks for checking out the site and please visit often.

Brings to mind one of the basic tenets of an "anonymous" organization I belong to which in effect says that we are based on "Attraction, rather than Promotion".

Considering that they changed:

Roman Catholic version:
" FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESSPASS AGAINST US"

into the Protestant version:
"FORGIVE US OUR DEBTS AS WE FORGIVE OUR DEBTORS"

shows their emphasis on money. Also trying to be smart with God. Attempting to make it alright if they don't forgive others in matters that do not pertain to the dollar.

Wallace, I think I know which organization you're referring to. Of course, the difference between the two is that yours would, in an ideal world, prefer to disappear (due to lack of need) while the church would prefer to have 100% membership.

Eurasian, I suggest that you research your interpretation of the words "debts" and "debtors." In fact, the Greek words used in Matthew 6:12 are derived from "opheilema," which refers to "sin as a debt, demanding expiation and thus payment by way of punishment" (defn. from "Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words"). It's just another way of describing our inherently sinful condition and God's grace and mercy in "writing it off" through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Don't try to make this use of words into a controversy because none exists. (Not that there aren't those on both sides who would try to profit from religion.)

In 1Corinthians 14v13-37, St. Paul points out the importance of receiving the gift of being able to interpret what one or others received and are uttering in toungues or foreign languages. Because if the uninstructed or the unbelievers hear you speaking in toungues and cannot understand you, they will think you are crazy (v.23)

You say that when Protestants say, "FORGIVE AS OUR DEBTS AS WE FORGIVE OUR DEBTORS ", what Protestants really mean is not only money debts but all sins or all trespasses. And you say that there is no conflict because Protestants agree with what Roman Catholics are saying with respect to this because the Greek word for debt, not only covers monetary debts but all sins.

But for the uninstructed and unbelievers to understand that there is no conflict between what Protestants are saying and what Roman Catholics are saying, the uninstructed and unbelievers need to know the MEANING OF THAT GREEK WORD FOR DEBT-THAT IT COVERS NOT ONLY MONETARY DEBT BUT ALSO ALL SINS.

SUCH IS LIKE SPEAKING IN TOUNGUES TO UNBELIEVERS AND THE UNINSTRUCTED. As St. Paul says in verse 19, "I WOULD RATHER SPEAK FIVE WORDS WITH MY MIND, SO AS TO INSTRUCT OTHERS ALSO, THAN TEN THOUSAND WORDS IN A TOUNGUE.

CONSIDERING THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC VERSION NOT ONLY IS A BETTER AND MORE COMPLETE VERSION OF THE VARIOUS SINS WHEN HEARD BY ORDINARY AMERICANS AND ENGLISH SPEAKERS WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF GREEK, WHY USE THIS PROTESTANT VERSION AND RISK BEING MISUNDERSTOOD BY THE UNINSTRUCTED AND THE UNBELIEVERS? DO PROTESTANT CHURCHES WANT UNBELIEVERS AND THE UNINSTRUCTED TO UNDERSTAND THE PRAYER OF JESUS INCORRECTLY?

Authentic speaking in toungues where the Holy Spirit is speaking through you in a foreign language or words that you yourself may not understand - will make you look special in the eyes of onlookers. But what is important is not that you are special, but that God will successfully communicate His messages to the the unbelievers and the uninstructed via you and these foreign languages that you yourself may not understand but are uttering. That's why St. Paul is pointing out the importance of asking and receiving the gift of interpretation, --- SO THAT YOU WILL NOT LOOK LIKE CRAZY PEOPLE TO UNBELIEVERS AND THE UNINSTRUCTED.

Protestants might think they look impressive quoting all these Greek words. But to St. Paul, my understanding of his words is that because you look crazy to unbelievers and the uninstructed , from verse 25, they will not believe that God is in your midst.

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Another, also, is the Protestant version of using the pronoun "WHICH" in WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, instead of "WHO" in "WHO ART IN HEAVEN"

It is right there written on a concrete wall in the cemetery at Resthaven. Now the uininstructed and unbelievers will think God is not a person but a thing.

Sure God is a Spirit and has no gender. But for some reason that only God knows, ALL ANGELS, I heard from an EWTN GUEST YEARS AGO SURPRISING EVEN MOTHER ANGELICA --ALL ANGELS IN THE BIBLE ARE MALE!!!! So also is the gender of Jesus "MALE.
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To enable people to receive MERIT from God, Churches be they Roman Catholic or Christian or Protestant ---- should not ask people to PLEDGE. Jesus tells us in the Gospels that "OATHS ARE FROM THE EVIL ONE." IF WE MAKE OATHS, we should try to keep them because doing so will please God. But best not to take oaths. In the case of pledges to give such and such amount to the church, my understanding is that it is best that people simply give instead of promising or making a pledge then breaking the pledge or pledges. If you make a pledge, you are bound by it. If you do not make a pledge, you are not bound by it. AND ANYTHING YOU GIVE HAS MERIT IN THE EYES OF GOD.

People have trouble keeping even the ten commandments. They have trouble even to keep just the three commandments of "Love God; Love neighbor; Love one another as I 've loved you. These pledges are just additional commandments, to bind us.

St. Paul, I think was a TENT MAKER and spoke about not being a burden to others. The apostles after the ressurection when Christ appeared to them, -- WERE FISHING. Maybe that was their livelihood.

Indeed, I think it is true that we are advised to give 10 percent tighte to God. In the early Church, there was a husband and wife who turned over to the church more than 10 percent of their earnings but kept some for themselves. When confronted by the apostles, they both instantly died!!! I don't know if it was pledges that did them in or whether the church rules at that time were different. One thing I know is that the Church was using the money collected to take care of widows and orphans. I don't think that the money collected was used for the apostles. Maybe a little, BUT NOT TO BE A BURDEN ON PEOPLE, OR TO SHAME THE POOR. SACRAMENTS, IN MY UNDERSTANDING ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SOLD. EVEN IF MIRACLES RESULT, ONE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THESE ARE WHAT GOD REFERS TO AS, "FREELY YOU RECEIVED THESE FROM ME. IF YOU BELIEVE THESE CAME FROM ME, THEN DO NOT CHARGE!!!" GETTING A LITTLE FOR THEMSELVES, BUT NOT TO LIVE EXTRAVAGANTLY NOR LUXURIOUSLY IS JUSTIFIED I BELIEVE IN CHRIST'S SAYING, "THE WORKER IS ENTITLED TO HIS PAY."

In my opinion, what we keep for ourselves should be the 90 percent of our earnings. What we give to GOD AND OUR NEIGHBORS IS THE 10 PERCENT OF OUR EARNINGS; BY THIS I MEAN, THE TOTAL OF WHAT WE GIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT IN TAXES PLUS WHAT WE GIVE TO THE CHURCH PLUS WHAT WE GIVE TO BEGGARS, THE NEEDY, THE POOR, THE HUNGRY, THE SICK, THE ORPHANS, THE WIDOWS, THE CHURCH BUILDINGS, THE CHURCH MAINTAINANCE, SHOULD BE 10 PERCENT OF OUR EARNINGS. In my opinion, this is consistent with the commandments "TO LOVE GOD AND NEIGHBOR."

That's why GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE TAXING LESS THAN 10 PERCENT. OTHERWISE, THE CHURCH WILL RECEIVE NONE OF THE 10 PERCENT WHICH IT CAN USE TO HELP THE NEEDY, THE HUNGRY, THE ORPHANS, THE WIDOWS, THE SICK, THE CHURCH BUILDINGS, THE ALTARS, THE CANDLES, THE CHALICES, THE TABERNACLES, THE BREAD AND THE WINE, THE VESTMENTS, THE CHURCH LIGHTING, AIRCONDITIONING, WATER, CHURCH MAINTAINANCE.

HOW WILL THE GOVERNMENT BUILD AND MAINTAIN ROADS, BRIDGES, AIRPORTS, PORTS, ETC WITH TOTAL LOCAL, STATE, AND FEDERAL TAXES OF LESS THAN 10 PERCENT OF THE COUNTRY'S EARNINGS????? THROUGH NEW INVENTIONS THAT WILL MAKE THESE SERVICES AND INFRASTRUCTURES CHEAPER AND LONGER LASTING!!!! Through a bigger 10 percent as a result of larger and larger GNP AND GDP PIES, FOR THE MORE YOU INVEST IN THE EARNERS OF INSTEAD IN THE GOVERNMENT, THE LARGER AND FASTER THOSE GNPs AND GDPs WILL GROW. ALSO, BY CUTTING ON EXPENSES FOR WARS. PEOPLE RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT MUST UNDERSTAND THAT GOVERNMENT IS THERE AS AN INSTRUMENT TO HELP INCOME EARNERS FULFILL GOD'S COMMANDMENT TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS. MOST OF ALL, ALSO GOD'S COMMANDMENT TO LOVE GOD ABOVE ALL. AS HE SAYS, "HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU LOVE GOD WHOM YOU CANNOT SEE, WHEN YOU DO NOT (even) LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR WHO YOU CAN SEE?"

Fomenting wars so that you can sell machineries and weapons of war, buy oil, etc dirt cheap, is neither "love of God" nor "love of neighbor." People in other countries are also our neighbors. THE GOOD SAMARITANS ARE OUR NEIGHBORS IN JESUS" PARABLE.

I'm thankful for the "marketing" of churches, too, on the web. I like to get a "feel" for a church before visiting it. And, if the church we attended in Midland hadn't been listed online (not a site at the time, just a listing) we would have never ended up living there!