There’s an interesting exchange of views in the comments for this recent post. My pal Jeff takes gentle exception to my semi-snarky comment about President Bartlet’s hospital room prayer for a wounded soldier in last week’s episode of The West Wing.
In this scene, the president asks the soldier if there’s anything he can do for him, and the soldier asks him to pray for him. The president agrees and immediately launches into the Lord’s Prayer (but the scene fades out before he gets past the second line).
This seemed to me to be the most politically correct way for Hollywood to show that it, too, has values without getting all icky and evangelical-like. Jeff rightly points out that there’s nothing wrong with praying this prayer, and it’s been oft-used especially in battlefield situations where the mind simply cannot function well enough to come up with anything else.
Indeed, Scripture addresses this human weakness, this inability to express our heart to God:
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. [Roman 8:26-27 (NIV)]
So, in one sense, the use of the Lord’s Prayer in this situation is perfectly acceptable, and I would never question the sincerity of someone who prayed it. In fact, I would never question anyone else’s attempts at prayer, period. That’s something we each need to work out with God, and I don’t think He’s particularly choosy about how we come to Him; He just likes hearing from His children.
On the other hand, I believe this scene was carefully scripted in an attempt to mollify a large population of Christians who are increasingly vocal in expressing their discontent with Hollywood’s inability or unwillingness to include their values in its programming (or, if they are addressed, it’s only to dismiss or make fun of them). If that’s the case, then the use of the Lord’s Prayer in this scene was simply the safest way to emanate a faint aura of “values” without getting into those nagging issues like absolute truth, the sovereignty of God and the saving grace of Jesus Christ…three bedrock foundations of Christian faith.
Well, one could argue, it’s not really a TV drama’s job to present an evangelical Christian message; what do you expect? I agree, but once the decision was made to put “Our Father, which art in heaven…” into the make-believe president’s mouth, the horse was out of the barn, so to speak. At the very least, this is a Christian prayer, offered by Jesus himself to his disciples as a model of how they should come before their heavenly Father in worship, confession, thanksgiving and intercession. If reality is Hollywood’s thing — and everything else in the show is intended to paint a believable picture of how things work in the White House — then why not show how a Christian actually prays on behalf of someone laying in a hospital bed?
Or…is this, indeed, how many (or most) people pray? That’s the question of the day. I’ve prayed for many a hospital patient or been in the presence of others while they prayed for them, and I’ve never heard anyone recite the Lord’s Prayer in those situations. But, admittedly, I come from a religious background that doesn’t place much emphasis on ritual, even (or especially) in areas as personal as prayer. Perhaps it’s my view that’s skewed.
I raised this question with friends over coffee last night and their reactions were the same as mine. One friend said that she recalled how, as children, she and her sister were present in her mother’s hospital room when a member of the clergy (whom her mother knew) stopped by and prayed the Lord’s Prayer over her (the mom). My friend remembers how she and her sister were both taken aback; they had never heard such a thing. But it is an example of how some use the Model Prayer in times when others feel something more personal and specific is called for.
In the end, I still believe that Hollywood doesn’t know nor does it want to know how the average Christian views and relates to God on a personal level. And, frankly, I suspect that the average Christian is now beyond caring whether Hollywood gets it right or not.
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Boy, He better like hearing from me, because my prayers are horribly rambling affairs. They usually end with the Lord’s Prayer, since I always feel like I’ve made a dog’s breakfast of it. And those are the private ones nobody ever hears.
I wonder what makes us (or maybe it’s just me) feel like we’ve got to be erudite and flowery, even in the privacy of our own minds?
OK, that’s way off topic.
The “West Wing” can be criticized for a lot more than just its lame portrayal of prayer. The show is unabashedly leftist on the major issues. President Bartlet describes the Second Amendment as “stupid-a$$ “. No doubt about the show’s “slant” on that issue.
From what I’ve seen on-line, the make-believe President’s Christian faith is used for two purposes. First, to show what a “religious” and “good” man he is, which makes his liberal stance on most issues, implicitly “religious” and “good” as well. The Left has been milking Joseph Lieberman’s devout Judaism like that for years.
Second, President Bartlet’s supposedly deep theological understanding underscores his superior Scriptural validity when he confronts “fundamentalist” opposition to his position on issues like abortion.
In the pilot episode, President Bartlet’s very first scene has him confronting and theologically trouncing “right-wing Christian anti-abortion leaders”. He finishes off his big introductory scene with a very important message to Christian viewers opposing abortion:
Now get your fat a$$es out of my White House!
…and people wonder why I don’t have cable, don’t watch television in general, and don’t feel the loss of either in the slightest.
Scott, I hope I didn’t give the impression that I was knocking the use of the Lord’s Prayer on the grounds that it’s not “flowery” enough. Indeed, I agree with you that the simple prayers from the heart are probably the ones God likes most.
However, there’s a legitimate case to be made for trying to present our very best to the Creator and Sovereign Ruler of the universe in everything we do. If someone is gifted in the area of vocabulary, a “flowery” prayer might be an expression of that gift.
Of course, in the end it’s all about what’s in our hearts and our attitudes when we approach God. He already knows what we’re gonna say before we do. If we’re praying to impress ourselves or someone else, well, like the Bible says, that will be our reward for our little act.
I also hope I’m not coming across as someone who has all of this figured out. I alternate between praying as a whiny sniveling selfish idiot and a prideful judgmental sanctimonious idiot. Heh. God loves me anyway!
Mr. Freen, I’ve never watched The West Wing, except for catching this brief fragment at my father-in-law’s house. My general impression based on word-of-mouth is consistent with your description, however.
May God have mercy on our nation if we have to get our theology from a TV program…and I don’t care if it’s The West Wing or Touched By An Angel!
Heck, you’re not coming across as anything negative. I just started rambling with no point in mind.
Mr. Freen, “… I don’t have cable, don’t watch television in general, and don’t feel the loss of either in the slightest …” , yet you’re singularly qualified to offer an opinion on a television show, and expect us to take it seriously? … Oooooookay 🙂
Eric, on a more serious note (and all Freen-iness aside), thank you for a first-rate post. I’d like to respond at some point, but not without some taking a little timeout for thoughtful consideration.
But thanks, again for starting what I’m sure will be an intersting discussion.
Scott, I’ve “known” you long enough to understand that you never ramble with no point in mind! 😉
I’m sure you’ll reveal it when you’re good and ready…
Jeff, I’ll look forward to reading your perspective on these issues. Prayer is one of the greatest spiritual mysteries there is, in my experience, and discussion about it is always helpful.
“…yet you’re singularly qualified to offer an opinion on a television show, and expect us to take it seriously? … Oooooookay :-)”
In case you haven’t noticed, Jeff, I made a point of supporting my opinion of the show with on-line documentation of its political slant. You see, I expected some wise-mouth to make exactly the criticism you did. There’s one in every crowd.
I never expected someone would be so outright asinine to criticize me for not watching a show, after I’ve shown why I don’t watch it with on-line sources.
In the case of the “West Wing”, Christian viewers didn’t have long to wait. The “President” was bitterly criticizing abortion opponents in the pilot episode.
Incidentally, yours is a logically flawed position to take on any subject. An individual does not have to personally experience every piece of filth and drivel in existence to recognize it as filth and drivel from an accurate description by others.
So tell me Jeff, have you ever personally watched child pornography? No? But you’ve heard about it and you know it’s wrong, don’t you? How do you know that?
By your reasoning, every person who doesn’t watch child pornography doesn’t have any basis to offer their opinion on it, either.
Maybe you should re-think your reasoning before deriding mine as “Freen-iness”. It might keep you from looking like an idiot next time.
WOW….. I feel like I have missed out on so much here. I can’t believe that a half-thought I had while reading your post Eric and become this masterpiece of discussion.
I feel bad for not being able to fully participate in this convo but my PC Cruiser doesn’t have internet access and I am positive that the cars in the lane next to me would prefer that I pay attention to the road instead of reading blogs.
Bravo to Scott, Mr. Feen, Jeff and Eric for a great discussion.
Shannon, that’s right…you’re the guy who gets the blam…um, credit for starting this!
…my PC Cruiser doesn’t have internet access…
And you call yourself a Geek For Hire. 😉
If watching West Wing is all it takes to be qualified for the discussion, I am over-qualified. I’ve watched the original broadcasts…I’ve watched the re-runs and I’ve rented from Netflix and watched every episode from the original pilot to the final episode of the last full season. I’m not only a fan…I’m an addict.
I recall a recent question put to me before I agreed to become a Nielsen household concerning how much TV I watched per week. I got the feeling they were slightly shocked when I estimated my total viewing to be somewhere in the bracket of 40 to 50 hours per week. Turns out I sleep less than I watch TV. I do have insomnia. If it wasn’t for that fact, I’d have no time for prayer. (Sorry! I have this sick sense of humor)
The Apostle Paul says we should walk in the Spirit. I understand why he says it. It’s the only way we could ever hope to pray without ceasing. 1Thes:5:17: Pray without ceasing.
I hope we can get around to an in-depth discussion of the scripture Eric cited (Romans 8:26-27. It has long been a favorite scripture of mine to bring up during Bible study. I would like to have seen the response of viewers if President Bartlett had laid hands on that wounded soldier and began to utter groans in the Spirit.
Mr. Freen, my apologies for the offense you took at my earlier remark. Yours has been a lively contribution to this forum, and one that I’ve always enjoyed – thought not with which I’ve always agreed.
Being in the business that I am, I get used to receiving criticism, and dishing it out in return. It was presumptuous and unthinking of me to assume that others would be similarly accepting.
And while the comment was delivered with a smiley-face (“smile when ya say that, partner”), it was received with complete seriousness, and I apologize again – to the forum at-large – for sendingus off on a tangent far removed from the original post.
Actually, a rambling, unfocused prayer would have made for good writing. At least it would have been realistic.
I think a larger concern than that the writers “copped out” and just used the Lord’s Prayer is that the entertainment industry just does not know how to portray evangelicals with much of any level of authenticity. (Eric, this sorta relates to your point about how this was just supposed to give the show an “aura” of “values.”)
Hollywood TV and films, films especially, typically go out of their way to represent whatever culture or people they’re highlighting with some level of authenticity. Not so evangelical Christians. We are ALWAYS caricatured. (Okay, maybe not always. But, yeah, always.)
This winter, a movie will come out starring Kevin Bacon as a convicted child molester. The movie will seek to be a “sensitive” examination of his life and possible rehabilitation. It will be careful not to judge anyone or make anyone out to be right or wrong. It will be a realistic and authentic portrayal of the complex issue of pedophilia. Or something like that.
Meanwhile, if Hollywood wants to depict Christians, we get lame movies liked “Saved!” in which the promotional people can’t decide if it is supposed to be satire or true-to-life.
We are aliens to Hollywood, but unlike actual extra-terresterials (or pedophiles, even), we are not portrayed with any sort of balance or indication that we are real people with significant viewpoints and genuine concerns and authentic faith.
I would like to have seen the response of viewers if President Bartlett had laid hands on that wounded soldier and began to utter groans in the Spirit.
Clarence, NBC might have actually picked up a few new viewers if it had the insight and guts to write a scene like that.
Sure, there would have been a bunch of eyerolling on one side of the viewing audience and disgusted groans on the other, but those who really read Scripture and understand the practical power of the Holy Spirit to change lives (Saul on the road to Damascus comes to mind) wouldn’t discount the scene so easily.
Ahh…what a fantasy world I live in. 😉
Jared, your insightful comparison of Hollywood’s treatment of pedophilia and Christianity is right on the mark. I think those Left and Right Coast writers and directors would like nothing better than to find a cure for Christianity. I expect to see a telethon any day now devoted to that cause.
Oh wait…I guess that’s already going on, in the form of the collective television programming and movie release schedule.
To everyone on this forum … Sometimes, I become so focused upon a broad discussion, that I forget some very important specifics that definitely would have bearing upon the discussion and how other participants might perceive my contributions to that discussion.
While I have been talking at great length about the appropriate use of prayer in a television program … I should have pointed out from the very beginning that I work for a television station affiliated with the network that broadcasts the particular television program that prompted this discussion. And though I work in a non-broadcast role, and I am not a great fan of the show in question … still, that connection is there, and I omitted it.
I’d like to thank the friend who at last offered what should have been a ‘crashing glimpse of the obvious’ to me from the start.
This will be my last post on this discussion.
Now, imagine preparing a television program for millions of people across the country.
No, thanks. Unless they all agree we’re gonna watch Gunsmoke or Rawhide or Bonanza again. Maybe even some Big Valley.
Jeff wrote: But in the episode that aired, the soldier asks the Television President to pray for him, and the President prays. From my own experience, my own skewed view, such a request seems perfectly natural. And honoring that request seems perfectly natural.
Boy, there you go…introducing a tone of reasonable and level-headed thinking into the discussion. I hate it when you do that. 😉
You’re right, of course. Credit should be given, however grudgingly, that the request and response was not in the form of a political statement. That must have been a tantalizing option to the writers, and I commend them (or the producer/director) for not succumbing to it. Thank God (no pun intended) for small blessings.
OTOH…even your observation tends to underscore my contention that the scene was consciously scripted to inject some “conservative religious values” into the show. However, I’m happy to drop that line of discussion; it’s not really important or even what I hoped the focus of this thread would be.
I’m still focused on the nature of the prayer that was offered. I suppose that if I were the wounded soldier, I would like for the prayer to be more specific to my situation.
I think a wonderful response to someone’s request for prayer is another question: “how can I pray for you?” (as in, what are the desires of your heart?). The answer to that question might often surprise us, as we can only guess at the other person’s real needs. Often, what we see or perceive based on physical manifestation is completely different from the spiritual issues the person is confronting.
I guess what I’m saying is that, in my view, an intercessory prayer should be almost like a three-way conversation, involving God, the person being prayed for and the person doing the praying. Jesus tells us that He is present wherever two or more are gathered in His name, and to me, that reality needs to infuse the prayer time. If one dwells on that fact, it’s really difficult to resort to a rote recitation of a non-specific prayer.
But, that’s just me. Anyone else want to weigh in, or have we beat this one to death?
One way to pray, say the “Our Father” is “BY THE WAY WE LIVE OUR LIVES.” For example, the “Our Father has a phrase which says, “LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION”. Yet, after we say the Our Father, come temptation time, even when they are not that strong, or even when they are not there, we ourselves put our own selves into occasions of such sins.
If we pray this phrase by the way we live our lives, then those particular connections which give us the propensity to fall into such particular temptation (which are like wirings that interconnect our neurons in the brain) WILL START TO DIE THROUGH DISUSE.
As we shift to new habits in order to obey this phrase, our brain will grow new connections. And as we repeat this new habit, that interconnection will start to strengthen and strengthen. Soon the interconnection will be so strong, and like blogs that we like to go, the more we use them, the more we become familiar or more expert about the people who put the comments including where to click to go to particular contents within the blog or website.
On the other hand, just like in blogs and websites, THROUGH DISUSE, WE WILL FORGET THE PASSWORDS, THE ROUTINES OF WHERE TO CLICK TO GET PARTICULAR PAGES WITHIN THE WEBSITE OR BLOG. YOU SEE, SOMETHING HAS PHYSICALLY HAPPENED WITHIN YOUR BRAIN. MEDICALLY, THE WIRINGS HAVE DIED A LITTLE OR MORE THAN A LITTLE. SO TOO WHEN WE PRAY THESE PHRASES IN THE OUR FATHER BY THE WAY WE LIVE OUR LIVES!!!! But saying the phrase or phrases of the “Our Father” is a start!!!
When we pray for a sick person in the hospital, it is true that the bible says where two or more are gathered in prayer, there I will be in the midst of them. But the Bible also says that God listens to holy people, not only in the words of Jesus in the Gospels, but also in the Old Testament when God told Abraham to search for holy people to pray with him to intercede before God so Sodom and Gomorah WILL NOT BE DESTROYED!!!!
And who are the holiest of humans who can pray with us so that God will listen to our prayers? Aren’t the holiest of humans Jesus Christ Himself and His Mother WHO BOTH ARE SINLESS???? Scripture itself in LUKE, shows us the ARCHANGEL GABRIEL ADDRESSING MARY BY THE NAME, “FULL OF GRACE”!!!!! Roman Catholic Church Teachings say that “FULL OF GRACE MEANS 100 PERCENT GRACE, ZERO PERCENT SIN!!!!” This was confirmed in the APPARITION AT LOURDES WHEN MARY SAID TO THE SEER, BERNADETTE SOUBIROU or BERNADETTE OF LOURDES that her name is “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION”. A very strange name indeed and the ignorant poor Bernadette DID NOT KNOW AT ALL WHAT IT MEANT!!!! But when her message was delivered to the Vatican, the pope, cardinals, bishops knew what it meant!!! It meant, that MARY WAS CONCEIVED IMMACULATELY, NO STAIN OF ORIGINAL SIN EVEN FROM CONCEPTION. It has been some 150 years since the death of Bernadette Soubirou. HER BODY NEVER DECAYED AND IS DISPLAYED IN THE CHAPEL AT NEVERS IN FRANCE. ( Google for “BERNADETTE SOUBIROU CHAPEL NEVERS BODY ” to see a picture of her body. The FBI and Forensic scientist have ways to find out if a body was embalmed!!!)
Just as God can preserve bodies that have never been embalmed, AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS MORE THAN 300 SUCH BODIES WHICH THEY CALL THE INCORRUPTIBLES, GOD TOO CAN CURE THE SICK BECAUSE HE CAN EVEN RAISE THE DEAD OR EVEN THE DECOMPOSED. Some, in my opinion, He leaves sick so we will know that decompositon or sicknesses are part of our natural world. BUT FOR THOSE FEW, CAN COME TRUE AS HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES, THE WORDS OF JESUS WHEN ASKED WHY SOME ARE BORN WITH DEFECTS. Is it due to the sins of the parents???? Jesus said, “NO. iIt is not due to the sins of the parents. IT IS TO SHOW THE POWER OF GOD!!!!”
Example of this is a man whose leg was just hanging to his hip by the muscles BECAUSE THE JOINT WAS EATEN UP BY CANCER. Lots of XRAYS of his CANCEROUS HIPJOINT WERE TAKEN WHILE HOSPITALIZED. Brought to the Grotto at Lourdes by a team of US DOCTOR PROFESSORS, GOD CURED THE MAN!!! A NEW JOINT GREW!!! XRAYS SHOWED CLEARLY THE DEMARCATIONS OF THE OLD BONES OF THE LEG AND HIP, AND THE NEW JOINT AND THE NEW BONES GRAFTED TO THE HIP AND TO THE UPPER LEG BONE. Last time and the only time I heard this from the LADY DOCTOR HERSELF WHO LED THE DELEGATION AND WAS BEING INTERVIEWED ON EWTN BY MOTHER ANGELICA, “THE MAN WAS AT LOURDES HELPING CARRY THE SICK DOWN AND UP THE POOL IN THE GROTTO!!! Even the lady doctor professor was SO WIDE EYED as she told her story where here she was, a medical professor, (perhaps Georgetown University, scene of the movie, “THE EXORCIST”, about to be put and immersed in this pool!!! She said she was saying to herself, “NOW HERE GOES ALL MY MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE!!! IN THIS POOL FILLED WITH BACTERIA AND ALL SORTS OF SICKNESSES. ” THE POOL’S WATER IS ONLY CHANGED TWICE IN A 24 HOUR DAY, ACCORDING TO HER. And every 20 minutes, A NEW BATCH OF SICK PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, many at the MOST ADVANCED STAGES OF THEIR DISEASE, ARE IMMERSED INTO THIS TINY POOL !!!! AND AS SHE IMMERSED HERSELF INTO THIS SOUPY WATER FILLED WITH BACTERIA AND ALL SORTS OF DISEASES, AS SHE ROSE FROM THE WATER, SHE WAS SO SURPRISED TO DISCOVER THAT HER CLOTHES WERE ALL DRY!!!! (This kind of miracle where the wet clothes end up dry happened to 80,000 witnesses in the Apparition at FATIMA,PORTUGAL. Despite the rain that whole morning of OCTOBER 13, 1917, AFTER THE MIRACLE OF THE SUN WHERE ALL 80,000 PEOPLE SAW THE SUN SPINNING AND THROWING A KALEIDOSCOPE OF ALL SORTS OF MOVING COLORS ON THE CLOTHES, THE HEADS, ARMS OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM, SUDDENLY ALL 80,000 SAW THE SUN PLUNGED TOWARDS THEM. FROM JOY, IT WAS SHRIEKS AND INSTANTANEOUS CRIES FOR MERCY AND PARDON FOR THEY THOUGHT IT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD!!!! THEN AS THE SUN RETURNED BACK TO ITS NORMAL POSITION IN THE SKY, THEY DISCOVERED THAT THEIR CLOTHES WERE DRY!!! (80,000 people cannot be wrong. But in the Weather Bureau NO PLUNGE OF THE SUN WAS OBSERVED!!!) As in Lourdes, Jacinta Marto, one of the seers who died from the Spanish Flu Epidemic in 1919, her body, though never embalmed, NEVER DECAYED!!!
One day, the body of this man will die!!! By autopsy or by decay of the flesh, people will see the old hip bone, the old leg bone, and the new joint grafted to the hip bone and to the leg bone. I’ve never heard or read anybody write it the way I am writing in this paragraph. In short, you should know that this is NOT COOKED. When this happens someday when the person is dead, then you and the world will know that it is NOT COOKED, AND THE BONES OF THAT MAN ARE A RESULT OF THE “POWER OF GOD!!!!”
…and His Mother WHO BOTH ARE SINLESS????
Sorry, Eurasian. I don’t believe this and I don’t know of any Scripture that supports this, despite your interpretation of the phrase “full of grace.”
I say this with complete respect for your right to your beliefs. I don’t wish to get into a prolonged discussion about it, but I can’t let the statement stand on my blog without addressing it.
Peace.
In matters where a person’s conscience TRULY conflicts with Roman Catholic Church teachings, the Roman Catholic Church itself tells each of us Roman Catholics NOT to follow the Roman Catholic Church BUT TO FOLLOW YOUR OWN CONSCIENCE!!!! (which is EXACTLY what you are doing!!! Or what people of other religions are doing!!! That is how the Roman Catholic Church itself wants it!!!)
Each of us, however, says the Roman Catholic Church have a duty to educate our conscience. A good example of this is this discussion we are having right now. It may look to you that I am trying to educate you and other people. But it is also true that you are trying to educate me and other people. And to the people who respond and put comments here, they too are educating you, me and the others!!! If I am wrong, then sooner or years later, you will succeed in convincing my conscience that the Roman Catholic Church is wrong, — and by Roman Catholic Church teachings itself, I MUST OBEY MY CONSCIENCE!!! As with me, so also with you and the billions of other people in the world!!!! EACH MUST FOLLOW HIS, HER OWN CONSCIENCE FOR CONSCIENCE IS LIKE STORED INSTRUCTIONS OF GOD IN OUR BODY’S HARD DRIVE. And contrary to the pledge of allegiance of the United States, GOD DID NOT MAKE US ALL EQUAL. As told to us in the PARABLE OF THE TALENTS, to some He gave more, to others He gave little. That is why, Jesus said, to THOSE WHO RECEIVED MORE, MORE IS EXPECTED. THOSE WHO RECEIVED LESS, LESS IS EXPECTED!!!
But just as in the PARABLE OF THE TALENTS, God was displeased with the servant who simply hid and buried the talents that he received. But he was pleased with the servant with the servant who invested his talents and returned to his master more talents that he received. His master then got the talents from the person he gave little and gave the talents to the servant who made his talents grow!!! Even when that servant already received more than the others!!! And Jesus says, TO THOSE HE GAVE MORE, MORE WILL BE GIVEN. TO THOSE HE GAVE LESS, EVEN THE LITTLE THEY HAVE WILL BE TAKEN AWAY!!!!
In short just as with the parable of the talents, where the talents are not to be buried but invested in the market place, SO TOO WITH WHATEVER WE RECEIVED FROM GOD. WE ARE TO USE SUCH TO INTERACT WITH PEOPLE, AND THAT INCLUDES OUR CONSCIENCE INTERACTING WITH THE CONSCIENCES OF OTHER PEOPLE!!!
Scripture itself says that the Holy Spirit distributes His gifts. To some he might give prophecies. But He might not give them the gift to understand what they are prophecying. So to understand the prophecy, the prophecy has to be exposed to others who received the gift of UNDERSTANDING what is being prophecied.
Okay. Your conscience Truly believes that the Virgin Mary is NOT SINLESS. But your conscience also truly believes that MARY IS A VERY HOLY WOMAN, MUCH HOLIER THAN ANYBODY YOU KNOW EXCEPT JESUS. AND EVEN IF YOU MIGHT BELIEVE THAT OTHERS SAINTS ARE HOLIER THAN MARY, THAT DOES NOT NEGATE THE FACT THAT MARY IS HOLY!!!
The Archangel Gabriel himself said to Mary, “BLESSED art thou amongst women”.
In the CANTICLE OF MARY, which is in the New Testament, I think in the Gospels, Mary says, “ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME HOLY.” EVEN THE MUSLIMS HOLD MARY IN HIGH EXTEEM, AS A VERY HOLY WOMAN, JUST SECOND IN HOLINESS TO MOHAMHED’S DAUGHTER, FATIMA, WHO MUSLIMS CONSIDER THE HOLIEST OF ALL WOMEN. Mohammed himself DEFENDED THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS. His version was that the NEWLY BORN JESUS SPOKE AND DEFENDED HIS MOTHER MARY AGAINST THE SLANDERERS!!! It is in the Internet!!! In my case I got it from the EWTN Website. But it is also in other websites!!! If you check the Internet, there is even a Shrine (near that “BASILAN ISLAND IN THE PHILIPPINES WHERE AN AMERICAN MISSIONARY COUPLE WERE KIDNAPPED JUST A FEW YEARS AGO AND 6,000 FILIPINO SOLDIERS WERE SENT TO SEARCH INCH BY INCH THE ENTIRE ISLAND FOR THEM”), THE SHRINE OF FORT PILLAR where for 400 years now, muslims have been visiting and giving their repects to the Virgin Mary!!! In the legend, A Spanish sentinel saw a muslim woman carrying a child and shouted the COMMAND: HALT!!! WHO GOES THERE!!! As he approached, he realized that it was the Virgin Mary carrying the infant Jesus. He said in fear, “PARDON ME, BLESSED MOTHER. I AM JUST A POOR SENTINEL DOING MY DUTY!!!” That night, the sentinel had a high fever and died!!!! But only after telling his superiors what happened !!! As such, the muslims have had stories where they say that in typhoons (hurricanes, cyclones), they would see Mary ATOP THE WAVES, AND THEY KNEW THAT SHE WAS PROTECTING THEM!!!!
AS SUCH, IF IN YOUR POST FROM THE BOOK OF ROMANS 8:26-27(NIV)THE HOLY SPIRIT INTERCEDES FOR THE SAINTS ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD —— IT MAKES SENSE TO INCLUDE MARY, FOR SHE IS ONE OF THE SAINTS!!!!
WOW!
Has anyone seen the recently released DVD movie “Luther?”
Eric – I couldn’t agree with you more about prayer being a three-way process when someone asks another to pray for them.
What I know about Romans chapter 8: 26-27 I learned through personal experience. I must be a Saint myself because the Holy Ghost has looked into my spirit and saw what I wanted to pray about but didn’t know how and interceeded on my behalf. All I heard was groans and moans but when the praying was done, I KNEW that God had heard me and would act upon my requests according to his own will. That’s all any of us should expect. Jesus said it: Not my will but thine be done. He did some moaning and groaning himself that night in the garden.
Thanks for providing this platform from which all of us have opportunity to be heard.
Clarence
In response to The Eurasian’s last comment, above:
In matters where a person’s conscience TRULY conflicts with Roman Catholic Church teachings, the Roman Catholic Church itself tells each of us Roman Catholics NOT to follow the Roman Catholic Church BUT TO FOLLOW YOUR OWN CONSCIENCE!!!!
Really? That’s interesting; I didn’t realize that the Vatican was so open-minded. So, let me ask you this. If the Pope is infallible, how can one’s conscience “truly conflict” with his teachings and still be acceptable?
Another way to pose this question, in a slightly different context, is this:
If a religion’s teachings and beliefs are based on, say, the Bible, and that religion believes that the Bible is wholly inerrant and wholly sufficient, then can there be any room for a member of that religion to hold a belief contrary to the basic teachings and beliefs, no matter how strongly the member feels her or his conscience is supporting that conflicting belief?
If the answer is “yes,” doesn’t that imply that the Bible is not inerrant or sufficient, after all?
Just some food for thought. 😉
But your conscience also truly believes that MARY IS A VERY HOLY WOMAN, MUCH HOLIER THAN ANYBODY YOU KNOW EXCEPT JESUS.
I’m assuming that you’re stating this as a hypothetical, because I don’t believe Mary is “much holier than anybody…” The Bible says that “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
At the same time, all believers are made holy in God’s eyes through the sanctifying blood of Jesus Christ (and only through that saving grace!). So when the angel calls Mary holy, he’s not labeling her with anything different than God has labeled all of us who’ve accepted his free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. Again, that’s not me talking; it’s Scriptural.
THE HOLY SPIRIT INTERCEDES FOR THE SAINTS ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD —— IT MAKES SENSE TO INCLUDE MARY, FOR SHE IS ONE OF THE SAINTS!!!!
As are we all; “saints” is simply (or, rather, wonderfully) the term applied in the Bible to the whole body of believers. There’s nothing in the Bible to elevate one saint above another in a spiritual sense.
I do agree with and appreciate your perspective on how we can benefit from “educating” one another. As iron sharpens iron, so our discussions can sharpen our understanding of Scripture and God’s will for our lives.
Clarence, I’ve not seen “Luther,” but Jen of Jen Speaks has and put up a review just yesterday. She gave it 3 stars out of 5.
And, yes…you are definitely a saint!
Eric, Clarence, et al
On Mary’s HOLINESS, BLESSEDNES
(1) LUKE1:39-45 Mary Visits Elizabeth(the old lady who could not conceive!!! Her husband ZECHARIAH was also old, a priest, the very priest and only priest, and only human being assigned and allowed to enter the holy of holiest in the temple, an area SEPARATED BY A CURTAIN.
Scripture tells us (not when Christ was alive on the cross) that at the moment when CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS, THERE WERE EARTHQUAKES, DARKNESS, TOMBS OF HOLY PEOPLE OPENNED UP AND THESE HOLY DEAD WERE WALKING AROUND AND THE CURTAIN IN THE TEMPLE TORE IN HALF, not bottom to top, BUT TOP TO BOTTOM!!!! WHAT MIRACLE DID THEY WANT WHEN THEY COULD SEE THE HOLY DEAD WALKING AROUND BUT NOT THE DEAD WHO WERE EVIL DOERS???? (This is a PRESS RELEASE of the openning of Heaven which before was CLOSED EVEN TO HOLY PEOPLE LIKE ABRAHAM, MOSES, AND THE HOLY PROPHETS BECAUSE OF THE DISOBEDIENCE OF ADAM AND EVE)
John the Baptist must have been a very special and holy person. His father, ZECHARIAH could speak!!! But upon exit from the Holy of Holies, WAS DUMB AND COULD NOT TALK _ UNTIL JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS BORN!!! His parents surely were VERY WELL KNOWN!!! ALL PARISHONERS KNEW THAT ZECHARIAH AND ELIZABETH WERE VERY OLD AND HAD NO CHILD!!!! And here this old BARREN woman, ELIZABETH WAS PREGNANT!!!! AND EVERY PARISHONER COULD SEE HER BIG BELLY!!!! THIS WAS A VERY GREAT MIRACLE AT THAT TIME, EXCEPT TO THOSE WHO WERE IN “DENIAL!!!”
Maybe you are Lutheran. But I tell you, BAPTISTS WILL DISAGREE WITH YOU VERY STRONGLY IF YOU SAY JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS NOT A HOLY MAN!!!
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LUKE1:39-41
During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah 40where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth 41WHEN ELIZABETH HEARD MARY’S GREETING, THE INFANT(John The Baptist) LEAPED IN HER WOMB, and Elizabeth, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, 42Cried out with a loud voice and said, “MOST BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN. . . .”
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Can you not see, verse 41 says “FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT”!!!! Even JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS IN BODY LANGUAGE SAYING THAT MARY IS BLESSED!!! And there were no telephones at that time!!! Can you imagine THE HORROR of an Elizabeth, greeting this 15 year old Mary, who she well knows is SINGLE, NOT MARRIED, AND DESCRIBING HER AS A “MOTHER!!!!”??? Eric, these were very holy people!!!!!
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LUKE1:46-56 THE CANTICLE OF MARY (Also known as THE MAGNIFICAT)
46 And Mary said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; 47my spirit rejoices in God my savior. 48For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; BEHOLD, FROM NOW ON WILL ALL AGES CALL ME BLESSED.
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Your question about the Pope is a distraction, so Ill address it later. At the moment we will FOCUS ON THE BLESSEDNESS, THE HOLINESS OF MARY!!!! Remember, Jesus’ time to do miracles had not yet arrived. BUT BECAUSE OF MARY’S REQUEST, JESUS TURNED WATER INTO THE BEST OF WINES. JARS AND JARS OF THEM!!! As I told you, EVEN MUSLIM FISHERMEN IN THAT BASILAN ISLAND WATERS have been telling Christians that during TIDAL WAVES, a few of them say they have seen a woman with an infant atop the waves!!!! And the wooden boats of those fishermen are not like the metal sturdy boats here in the United States!!! Ask Mary to pray with you. Ask Jesus to Pray with you. It is an irony if non-christians are recipients of God’s graces through Mary’s help as was the case of the bride and groom in Cana, and here are Protestant Christians REJECTING MARY’S PRAYERS!!! JESUS IS ALSO TRUE MAN. HIS BODY IS NOT IN THE TOMB BECAUSE HE RESSURECTED AND ASCENDED!!! AS A MAN, HE OBEYS THE COMMANDMENTS AND THUS HE OBEYS THE COMMANDMENT TO HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER!!!!
POPE INFALLIBILITY WHEN SPEAKING EX-CATHEDRA IN MATTERS ONLY PERTAINING TO “FAITH AND MORALS” SUCH AS THE DOGMA OF THE “IMMACUCULATE CONCEPTION”.
Today is December 8. To Catholics, a very special day commemorating MARY’S CONCEPTION WITHOUT ANY SIN AT ALL.
Although a pope is inerrant when he speaks EX-CATHEDRA, what I heard from a speaker at EWTN is that there had only been 2 CASES WHERE A POPE HAS SPOKEN EXPLICITLY “EX-CATHEDRA”. AND THIS DOGMA OF THE “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION” IS ONE OF THOSE ONLY TWO CASES!!!!! (I think it was Pope Pius IX)
This does not mean that in other cases where a pope has not spoken EX-CATHEDRA in matters of FAITH AND MORAL that a pope is in error.
A pope is NOT INFALLIBLE in MATTERS THAT ARE NOT “FAITH AND MORALS”.
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Because today is DEC. 8, it is easy to find writings on the Immaculate Conception, THE SAME DAY THAT THE JAPANESE ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE HAWAII AND THE PHILIPPINES WERE BOTH PART OF THE UNITED STATES AT THAT TIME!!!! CATHOLICS IN THE PHILIPPINES, I UNDERSTAND, REMEMBER THIS DAY, BECAUSE I PERSONALLY HEARD AN OLD FILIPINA who was a young lady at that time THAT THEY WERE GOING TO MASS EARLY IN THE MORNING, BECAUSE IT WAS A HOLY DAY OF OBLIGATION, FEAST OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION. THEN THE MANY CHURCH GOERS SAW UP IN THE SKY GLIMMING FLICKERS OF METALS. WONDERFUL LOOKING WAVES AND WAVES OF PLANES!!!! THEY WERE JAPANESE PLANES FROM THE COUNTRY WHICH BELIEVED THAT ITS EMPEROR IS A god, a country who flag, is a round red disk, the sun!!!!! THEN THE PLANES WERE DROPPING THEIR BOMBS!!!
FEAST OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION!!! PLANES ATTAKING AS MILLIONS OF FILIPINO CATHOLICS WERE GOING TO MASS TO HONOR “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION” !!!!! THE DEVIL MUST HAVE BEEN SO MAD FOR HERE WAS THIS FETUS, CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE LORD AND GIVER OF LIFE!!! THE DEVILS WERE STILL SO ENRAGED , THAT 2,000 years later, THE DEVILS SENT THE JAPANESE TO BOMB THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WERE HONORING HER IMMACULATE CONCEPTION WITHOUT ANY ORIGINAL SIN OR ANY SIN AT ALL IN THE WOMB OF ST. ANN!!!
To answer Eric’s question and present as clearly as I can “PAPAL INFALLIBIBLITY”, I am putting here this link so our separated brothers and sisters, THE PROTESTANTS, will not be confused about the Roman Catholic position.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
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From America’s former and perhaps only colony ever, the Philippines, an article from their MANILA BULLETIN newspaper on “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION”, Mary’s name according to Mary herseself as given to Bernadetted Soubireau in the APPARITION AT LOURDES:
http://www.mb.com.ph/OPED2004120824035.html
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Clarification:
Near the bottom of my post, the stament should only read: “HERE WAS THIS FETUS CONCEIVED WITHOUT ANY ORIGINAL SIN OR ANY SIN.”
If my paragraph appears that way, it is because in my original paragraph, as I was making my correction , I deleted
“AND IMMACULATE CONCEPTION’S SON” from the first sentence.
But though it was unintentional, looking at the paragraph as it is, I think, and it is only my opinion, if Mary is immaculately conceived, though she has a human biological father, the immaculate conception was made possible as a result of GOD THROUGH THE POWER OF HIS PERSON, THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS THE LORD AND GIVER OF LIFE.